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Author Topic: GVWR vs. Dry Unit Weight (Which do I use)?  (Read 9648 times)
Madzamboni
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« on: March 18, 2011, 06:40:20 PM »

Tomorrow I am picking up my new Flagstaff HW27SC. We have been waiting weeks and are excited, but I found one thing that concerns me.

My 2009 v6 Tacoma w/ Towing Package can haul 6500lbs.

On the sales sticker of the trailer at the dealer, it says it is 3141lbs. I should be well under capacity.

However in reading some specs from the manufacturer, I stumbled on something that concerns me. It says my Base Dry Unit Weight is 2959lbs and my GVWR is 3859lbs.

Now I am assuming the Dry Weight plus options (like AC unit) is how they got the 3141lbs. But I though you were supposed to look at the GVWR when considering weight. I am still under my 6500lbs rating, but higher than I would like after you include gear, etc.

Its late east coast time, I hope there are a few PUX'ers online tonight or on the other side of the pond. I would like to have my ducks in a row by tomorrow. I go in at 9am to pick it up.
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wavery
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2011, 06:54:43 PM »

Tomorrow I am picking up my new Flagstaff HW27SC. We have been waiting weeks and are excited, but I found one thing that concerns me.

My 2009 v6 Tacoma w/ Towing Package can haul 6500lbs.

On the sales sticker of the trailer at the dealer, it says it is 3141lbs. I should be well under capacity.

However in reading some specs from the manufacturer, I stumbled on something that concerns me. It says my Base Dry Unit Weight is 2959lbs and my GVWR is 3859lbs.

Now I am assuming the Dry Weight plus options (like AC unit) is how they got the 3141lbs. But I though you were supposed to look at the GVWR when considering weight. I am still under my 6500lbs rating, but higher than I would like after you include gear, etc.

Its late east coast time, I hope there are a few PUX'ers online tonight or on the other side of the pond. I would like to have my ducks in a row by tomorrow. I go in at 9am to pick it up.
You should be fine with your Tacoma.

When you are considering what you can tow, you need to consider the actual "Scale Weight". Dry weight tells you nothing. The GVWR is the maximum weight that your trailer is rated to handle. That's also a bit ambiguous. Generally speaking, you will probably be under the GVWR (especially starting out) but it's something that you need to keep an eye on.

The other issue is that the "Tow Rating" on some vehicles means little. On some vehicles, the Tow Rating is the maximum amount of weight that the vehicle can tow with NO cargo and NO passengers....only a 150# driver. Anything else that is added to the load, must be subtracted from the Tow Rating.........However, your Tacoma may be rated differently....check it.

The rating that you should really find out is your GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating). That is the total weight that your Tacoma is rated to handle........ including, fully loaded trailer, truck, cargo and passengers.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 07:00:54 PM by wavery » Logged

Wayne, Carolyn & Sccamp 14  grandkids  ...Southern California
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'98 Winnebago Adventurer 33
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allan
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2011, 07:03:04 PM »

I  would only suggest you check you tongue weight capacity. Once loaded to the max your trailer could / should have a tongue weight of around 578 lbs. That will more than likely be over you weight carrying hitch capacity, as most weight carring limits are 500lbs   Meaning a WDH could be in your future
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TERRY AND SHAY
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Madzamboni
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2011, 07:28:13 PM »

Thanks for the quick response guys.

@wavery - I am assuming Scale Weight is trailer weight plus all the junk I pack in it? I figured a trailer at 3100lbs with 500lbs of gear in it would be a 3600lb trailer. (Assuming water tanks empty, etc). Which still puts me a good clip under capacity.

I know my Trucks GVWR is 5250 and GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) is 11,100. So even if Add up GVWR of both I am still under 11,100.

My tongue weight is up to 650lbs with a tow package so I should be OK.

As I said, I think I am OK. I just wanted to be well under capacity so I am not playing "I think I can I think I can" while going up a slight ascent.  I also have a realitvely new truck and don't want to blow an engine.

You can look at my specs here - look at the V6 Prerunner w/ Towing Package.
http://www.toyota.com/upfitters/pdfs/specs/2009TacomaProductSpecs.pdf
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wavery
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2011, 07:48:25 PM »

As Allen pointed out, your only issue is that you will surely need to add a WDH.

Towing is not really about "Pulling" a load. It's 90% "Stopping" a load. You can surely climb about any grade safely with your set-up. However, making your way back down from the top will be your big safety issue. In order to stay safe (especially on wet surfaces) you will need a WDH to be able to keep your front wheel braking and steering.

650# tongue weight with a 127" WB is problematic without a WDH.
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Wayne, Carolyn & Sccamp 14  grandkids  ...Southern California
--------------
'98 Winnebago Adventurer 33
160W Solar Panels, Dual 6V Batteries

EX PU- '04 Trailmanor 2720SL........ 

3X PU '02 Coleman Tacoma

EX- TV - 2006 Chevy Silverado 1500 (ext cab) 157" WB.
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2011, 10:14:00 PM »

I'm sure the 650 is with a WDH. Weight carrying hitches don't as a rule go that high. "MOST" only go to 500LB untill you get to a 3500, or 350 series truck. I suggest you look at the stamp on your hitch to verify the weight carrying capacity. It will probably be something like 450 lb weight carrying, and 650 weight distrabuting. I could be wrong, But I'd be real surprised if it had 650 weight carrying capacity. that's more than any full sized truck.
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TERRY AND SHAY
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Madzamboni
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2011, 02:15:37 AM »

Is a weight distrobution hitch different than a sway control (which is being installed)?
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chiefd
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2011, 02:30:35 AM »

Did I miss something the dry hitch weight for the HW27SC per the brochure is only 359Lbs.  It would take a lot of stuff in the front to total 140 lbs.  Not impossible propane, battery and then the stuff, but hoses, cords etc for outside do not total 60lbs IMHO.


http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/default22.asp?choice=ftc&page=brochure&nav=rec

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wavery
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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2011, 05:03:08 AM »

Is a weight distrobution hitch different than a sway control (which is being installed)?
Yes .....A WDH is a separate piece of equipment..

I misunderstood your previous post. I see that your dry tongue weight is ~360#. I would suspect that you fully loaded tongue weight would be in the 500# area. A WDH would certainly be a wise safety move.
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Wayne, Carolyn & Sccamp 14  grandkids  ...Southern California
--------------
'98 Winnebago Adventurer 33
160W Solar Panels, Dual 6V Batteries

EX PU- '04 Trailmanor 2720SL........ 

3X PU '02 Coleman Tacoma

EX- TV - 2006 Chevy Silverado 1500 (ext cab) 157" WB.
allan
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2011, 07:22:05 AM »

Did I miss something the dry hitch weight for the HW27SC per the brochure is only 359Lbs.  It would take a lot of stuff in the front to total 140 lbs.  Not impossible propane, battery and then the stuff, but hoses, cords etc for outside do not total 60lbs IMHO.


http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/default22.asp?choice=ftc&page=brochure&nav=rec



Gross weight of 3859. Tongue weight should be in the 15% range. So 3859lb X 15% =  578 lb I did do that right didn't I Huh?? Check my mayth I been wrong a time or two.
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TERRY AND SHAY
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wavery
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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2011, 07:54:26 AM »

Did I miss something the dry hitch weight for the HW27SC per the brochure is only 359Lbs.  It would take a lot of stuff in the front to total 140 lbs.  Not impossible propane, battery and then the stuff, but hoses, cords etc for outside do not total 60lbs IMHO.


http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/default22.asp?choice=ftc&page=brochure&nav=rec





Gross weight of 3859. Tongue weight should be in the 15% range. So 3859lb X 15% =  578 lb I did do that right didn't I Huh?? Check my mayth I been wrong a time or two.

15% isn't a hard fast rule. My understanding is that one should have 10-15% tongue weight. It depends a lot on trailer/TV design. For instance, TrailManors do very well with ~12-13% and I've never heard of one have swaying issues with no sway-bar.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 08:03:44 AM by wavery » Logged

Wayne, Carolyn & Sccamp 14  grandkids  ...Southern California
--------------
'98 Winnebago Adventurer 33
160W Solar Panels, Dual 6V Batteries

EX PU- '04 Trailmanor 2720SL........ 

3X PU '02 Coleman Tacoma

EX- TV - 2006 Chevy Silverado 1500 (ext cab) 157" WB.
Madzamboni
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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2011, 04:39:58 AM »

OK guys - there is a lot of information and a lot of numbers flowing back and forth. So let me summarize what I know and what I believe to be true.

First off, a sway control is meant to supress sway when driving. This is different than a WDH (Weight Distrobution Hitch). A WDH is meant to help shift toungue weight back off the hitch onto the trailer to prevent the back end of the truck from sagging which lifts the front wheels messing with traction and breaking. They both solve a different problem, one sway and the other lifting front wheels.

My HW27SC has a GVWR of 3859 and a Dry Unit Weight of 2959. Dry weight is ignored for the calculation, so we use 3859.

General rule of thumb is toungue weight is 10-15% of GVWR, so we will error on the higher end. (3859lbs x 15% =  578.75lbs). I should plan for 578.75lbs of toungue weight.

I have a 2009 v6 Tacoma with towing package - Prerunner with Access Cab (http://www.toyota.com/upfitters/pdfs/specs/2009TacomaProductSpecs.pdf)

According to Toyota a towing package includes a - High output alternator, oil cooler, transmission cooler, and a hitch bolted to the frame. I have almost all of these (a seperate discussion).

According to the Tacoma specifications, I should be able to have a toungue weight of 650lbs (up from 350 w/o towing package).

So 650lbs rated toungue weight > 578 lbs. So I should be OK.


Now PECO Campers, who I do trust, also said I do not need a WDH. If I did, it would be a very small one and may be difficult to find a place to attach it with my sway control which is already on.

However, I would like to be doublechecked one more time by you all.




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rabird
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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2011, 04:53:31 AM »

What are the weigh carry specs of the hitch?
Without WDH, will the rear axle of the truck be overloaded from the tongue weight + the weight removed from the front axle plus the cargo?

578lb tongue weight would remove 260 lbs from the front axle of my vehicle, greater than 10% of its load without any tongue weight. 578 + 260 = 838 lbs on the rear axle which would nearly exceed my TV's rear axle rating and not allow any cargo.

"Without a WD system, the tow vehicle's rear axle load could significantly increase due to leveraging of the tongue weight. Conversely the front axle load will be decreased. These axle load changes will make most tow vehicles unlevel. The decreased load on the front axle can cause a loss of steering control and braking difficulties. The increased rear axle load might exceed that axle's rating, and the load on the receiver might exceed its rating.

A weight distribution system enables a tow vehicle to more effectively handle the tongue weight of a trailer by removing some of the load from the tow vehicle's rear axle and distributing it to the tow vehicle's front axle and the trailer's axle(s). Note - When the WD system is engaged the actual tongue weight does not change. Recommended tongue weight is from 10% to 15%.

Consult your owner’s manual to determine if your vehicle is suited for a WD system.
"
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 05:00:33 AM by rabird » Logged

Madzamboni
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2011, 05:00:25 AM »

What are the weigh carry specs of the hitch?

Good question, where would I look? On the hitch itself?
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rabird
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2011, 05:02:41 AM »

Yes, there is usually a sticker with weight carry TW/load and WDH TW/load ratings.
Example: 400/4000 WC  600/6000 WD
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 05:05:09 AM by rabird » Logged

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